A Massachusetts church nativity display sparks heated debate on immigration

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If you love to travel, Capital 1 has [music] a rewards credit card that's perfect for you. With the Capital 1 Venture X card, you earn unlimited double miles on everything you buy. Plus, you get premium [music] benefits at a collection of luxury hotels when you book on Capital 1 Travel. And with Venture X, you get access to over 1,000 airport lounges [music] worldwide. Open up a world of travel possibilities with the Capital 1 Venture X card. What's in your wallet? >> Terms apply. [music] Lounge access is subject to change. See capital.com for details. >> Without further ado, >> WBSM presents the Barry Richard Show [music] streaming live on WBSM.com and the WBSM app. Call 508996500. [music] Text us using app chat on the WBSM app. [music] Now, the Barry Richard Show. >> All right, welcome to the program. 12:15 on a rather chilly, partly sunny Monday afternoon. Temperature right now here on the neck is at 28° and we have a feels like temperature of 17°. So that's mighty chilly out there. And um so bundle up if you're heading out. I didn't get out for the walk today. That's just a little bit too cool. So I don't know. Anyway, but uh right being honest with you, just too cold. I'm a chicken with a cold and the wind. If it's cold, I can deal with it. But with cold and and the breeze, yeah, a little bit too much. All right. Um a whole new week, whole bunch of new things, some old things to carry over from last week. And uh if you were listening on Friday, we had a um a guest shot with Tim Dunn from the uh Boston Herald, political reporter from the Boston Herald, and we talked about a story that he broke last week about a um about a church, Catholic church in Denim, the St. Susanna Parish in Denim, activist priest. And um Reverend Stephen or Stefen, however he pronounces it, sen Jose Soma. He's the pastor of St. Susanna Parish in Denim. and he put out the church's Christmas crush this year uh minus the baby Jesus and Mary and Joseph and replaced the trio with a sign that said ice was here. And the display the display was supported by some in the parish, some in town thought, "Hey, this is pretty cool." And it sends a message, others not so happy. And other Catholics um in Massachusetts not too happy. Uh the sign implies that if the Holy Family were present today, they would have been arrested by ICE. Well, they would not have been in Massachusetts, so that would not have been an issue. And as long as they had their documentation in order, they would not have had to worry about ICE either. But um anyway, the arch dasis has since ordered the removal of the display. Now, I don't know whether that has happened yet. Um but the arch dasis has uh has has told uh old reverend Joe Soma Joe Soma that he must remove the sign and put the baby Jesus back where he belongs along with mom and pop and um the Catholic Action League of Massachusetts very upset by the goings on in Denim. The league's executive director, CJ Doyle, called the sign a quote crackpot publicity stunt in which Doma was quote politicizing Christmas, exploiting the Holy Family, and using his position as a parish priest to promote his left-wing political ideology. Doyle said that the sign was inappropriate, sacriiggious, divisive, and disrespectful. Now, I suppose whether you agree with any of that depends upon where you stand. Um, on the issue of Trump being the president because everything in this country now boils down to whether you like Trump, you don't like Trump. If you don't like Trump, then you think this is great because you dislike his immigration policy and you don't like ICE and so on and so forth. ICE has existed and and everybody's loved ICE, but now that Trump's president, nobody likes ICE. It's cool to be cruel to ICE, right? But if you like Trump and you think he's doing a pretty good job, then uh you probably think this whole thing is ridiculous. It's pretty much how we judge everything these days, isn't it? By the way, the story, we talked about it on Friday. It's got nationwide coverage now. And uh actually uh the media in Canada and the UK have talked about it as well. On Friday, the arch dasis of Boston after years of silence about Father Joe Soma using nativity scenes to convey political messages finally spoke out, reports the Boston Broadside. The communications director for the arch dasis, a gentleman by the name of Terrence Donalan, issued a public statement which according to the Boston Broadside said, quote, "The people of God have the right to expect that when they come to church, they will encounter genuine opportunities for prayer and Catholic worship, not divisive political messaging. The church's norms prohibit the use of sacred objects for any purpose other than the devotion of God's people. This includes images of the Christ child in the manger, which are to be used solely to foster faith and devotion. The statement concluded with a clear instruction. The display should be removed and the manger restored to its proper sacred purpose. The Catholic Action League called the decision by the arch dasis a victory for sanity in the Catholic Church. And again, league executive director CJ Doyle u made the following statement or the the following comments to Boston Broadside. He said the arch dasis should be commended for doing the right thing. Cardinal Shauna Mali tolerated Father Just political activism for two decades. Now just 13 months into the episcopate of Archbishop Richard Henning, Father Joma has been told publicly to shut down one of his political stunts. The response may well be a hopeful sign reflecting the change in the leadership of the Arch Dasis in Boston. It would also seem to reflect widespread public outrage over the continued juvenile antics of this publicity seeking dissident priest said CJ Doyle. Whatever the cause, the faithful Catholics of Denim can now look toward a traditional nativity scene reminding them in joyous expectation of the birth of our savior. What do you think about all of this? Now certainly the the Catholic Church is not controlled by the government. So there are no federal rules, no state rules uh that dictate whether you can replace the baby Jesus with a sign that says ICE was here. No rules. No government has no involvement there. Now some folks think the church has a role. Yeah. I find it's almost kind of humorous in in a sense because the church has never been shy about um expressing political viewpoints. I'm not a Catholic. I don't have any skin in this game. Um don't have a a a dog in this race. Don't have a fox in this hunt. Um but I know many of you are. Now, if you were to show up at your church tomorrow, I didn't even holy name up on Mount Pleasant or uh St. James. I don't even know what's still there. St. James on is is St. James still there? Um St. Mary's. Any of any of the Catholic churches around the area? St. Joe's. There used to be a St. Joe's on the on the Avenue. I'm not I know that one closed. There may be a St. Joe's somewhere else. If you were to show up at your Catholic church tomorrow and where little baby Jesus used to be and Joseph and Mary used to be, there is now a sign that says ice was here. Would you find that offensive? Or would you say, "Well, I may agree or disagree with the messaging, but I think the church has a role in speaking out about public policy." Now again, according to Boston Broadside and the um Catholic Action League of Massachusetts, apparently this priest, well, he's been described by the Catholic Action League of Massachusetts as being a quote unquote um dissident and this a crackpot publicity stunt. What would you think if you showed up for mass on Sunday and you saw the baby Jesus missing from the crash in a sign that said ice was here in its place? Would you be upset? Would you be angry? I'm going to grab a couple of calls on this. Uh I know we're just getting started, but let me let me grab a couple of calls on this because I've got some other things I want to go on uh to cover today. 5089960500, you are next on WBSM. Good afternoon. >> Hi Barry. >> Hi. So the whole reason Mary Joe and Joseph were going to Bethlehem was because it was the time of the census and they had to be counted in the land of their origin. So if that was now and there was Guatemalan Mary, Joseph and Jesus, they would have they wouldn't have been in Massachusetts. They would have been back in Guatemala being counted for their census. So it it doesn't make any sense whatsoever because they weren't in the wrong land. They were in their real land where their land of their origin to be counted in the senses. So the ICE even back then wouldn't have taken them away. They were where they belonged. Well, I think, you know, you have folks who are well-intentioned, but I think um a lot of folks um don't take into consideration um and you'll say, you know, well, Jesus was, you know, I just saw a picture of it today in New York City where somebody was protesting and and Jesus was an immigrant and so on and so forth. First of all, the world was very different 2,000 years ago and um and we weren't even a society here 2,000 years ago. Uh there were there were Native Americans or our so-called Native Americans roaming around the place and whole lot of buffalo and everything else but Jesus didn't come here and we didn't require well first of all we were in a nation and uh you know second of all we didn't require nobody nobody that was here required passports and visas and and and all that kind of stuff. So it was a very different world and you cannot compare it's like comparing apples and oranges. >> Exactly. It's a stupid comparison cuz like I said, if it was what you're thinking of the ice went and took them away, they wouldn't have because they were in the land of their birth >> at the time >> and that's what they were doing there. So, it doesn't make any sense the whole thing. And being a a priest, you would think he'd know that, but maybe maybe he needs a little lesson on the Bible. Well, I think it's, you know, it's it's to obviously it's to make a point and I'm sure Yeah, I'm sure the priest knows that, but again, it's become part of the the popular uh lore these days that uh well, Jesus was an immigrant and uh and uh you know, so on and so forth. So, um facts don't always matter when you're having a political discussion, right? Um so, you go right to the core, you go right to the heart of it. But what would you think if you showed up to your church? I don't know if you're a Catholic, but if you showed up to your church tomorrow and Jesus was gone and there was a sign like that in its place. >> Well, you know, and and I'm not Catholic, but that's the whole point of of separating church and state is that one is supposed to have nothing to do with the other. You go to church to pray and to be faithful and, you know, to to get a sermon about God's will and and Jesus and all that. You don't go there to talk about ICE and illegal aliens and what your thoughts on that is. If you want to go to that, you go to public forums and, you know, town council meetings. You don't go to church for that. >> Right. >> But don't confuse though. Don't confuse the separation of church and state with um uh with the church having a right. I mean, the church has every right in the world to to to speak on political issues and the and the priest does as long as the arch dasis allows him to has every right in the world to speak. and and we as citizens have every right in the world not to go if we don't want to go and we don't have to listen. We don't have to put money in the poor box or or pay our seat money or whatever else they charge in the Catholic Church. They have a right to do that. But and and you know what, the Catholics have been doing this for a long time and I suspect that other religions have as well where you know they get uh up to the pulpit and they begin to preach politics and um but I just wonder as you know as Catholics um or maybe the you know Protestants or whatever if this was to happen I don't even know if the Protestants put out crushes in front of their churches but you know when you show up to your church and you see a political statement being made like that in front of the church. I mean, is it a turnoff to you? Is it is it something that's uh um you know, maybe going beyond a little bit beyond what >> it would it would be to me. It would be to me. I think I think that's better left to something. like you said, they have the right to to do that, but they could have a group where they they want to help the immigrants and they want to do this and do that. But to to make a public thing out of out of a very religious um you know, nativity scene I just think is is uh a turnoff I think at Christmas time. What are you going to tell your kids? >> All right, my friend. Appreciate it. 5089960500 is the phone number and you are next on WBSM. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. I bet you're missing those muggy days these days. >> Oh man, I know. I'm thinking Key West right now or Key Largo or something like that, you know? But my heart's there. But >> there you go. Well, as a Catholic, uh if I walked into my church and uh I saw that, I would literally I would turn away, turn around, walk out because it's it's not the place. Not only that, think about this. You got the church. So, this particular church is saying they're anti-immigrant. You know what they're doing? Well, I'm in for what they're doing. If they're not supposed to be here legally, you know, illegally, then what's the big deal? So, now you're making me feel bad about my beliefs. You see what I'm saying? >> So, they're not taking my everybody's feelings. This this gentleman, and I'll just say it that way, is just taking a point of view that it's almost like this. you come to this church, then you have to be against ICE, against everything. Whether they're here legally or not, it doesn't matter. yada yada yada. And okay, so my opinion means nothing. Well, then if that's the case, why am I going to to your church? And and and just to add a point to this, I got family in in another state, which I won't mention, and and part of the reason why they don't go to church where they are is because they don't like the fact that there that church, they bring up politics. And it it drives them nuts because it goes that's not what we're here for. >> Exactly. >> We're here to hear the words from the Bible, things like that. We don't want to know what your view is. And and that's what really stopped it because you know I was talking to a family member why and they told me that's the reason why they don't go to church anymore because the church in that particular state does that but still coming back here to Massachusetts. Uh what town was this in need or something like that? >> Denim dead me. >> So now once again here I am Catholic and I I'm all for you know what ICE is doing but now I'm feeling a little guilty walking up to the church. I see this are going, "Well, they're making me sound like I'm bad." Oh, let's talk about what, you know, you guys did, meaning the Catholic Church about forcing Native Americans to drop their beliefs to believe in you. You know what I'm saying? But that's okay. You know what I'm saying? It's okay for you to force your beliefs on other people, which is to me what this guy is doing. If you think about it, he's forcing his beliefs onto his, you know, membership. Yeah. Well, you know, and I agree with what you just said. I think to go all the way back to the outset of what you said, um when I think when when people go to church on Sunday, um it is because they are turning out the rest of the world and they are going there for something very different. And they're not going there to uh deal with politics. I mean, our society today is just uh bursting at the seams with political debate. It's politics everywhere. Everybody's got cable news. Everybody's got cell phones. I mean, it just pops up every You go in a coffee shop and you're wearing the wrong hat, you're going to get yelled at or whatever. People are tired of that. By Sunday, they want to go and they want to worship and they don't want to deal with politics. And um so I don't think it's fair to force it on them. But the other point I wanted to make too is how well does the Catholic Church and the Catholic the Catholic Church has been involved in this um kind of like underground railroad if you will from the the border up into places like Massachusetts and and elsewhere in the country really kind of like smuggling immigrants into the country. Are they vetting these people and and who are these people that that are coming in? Are they committing crimes? Are we paying for these people? Um and so on and so forth. So, um, you know, the Catholic Church has a role and a vested interest in in this whole pipeline of illegals into this country. So, um, I don't know. I I just it it bothers me in that regard. >> Well, think about it this way. The Democrats have taken a a play out of the the Catholic rule book because the Catholics I mean, church is doing it for the same reason. They're looking to increase their membership. So when they bring in, you know, the illegals that go, "Okay, don't forget it was us who did it, so show up at our church, give donations, yada yada yada." You know what I'm saying? They're strengthening their hand by doing that. No different than why, you know, the Democrats are looking to do the same thing. They're looking for voters. So, you know, it looks like the Democrats have been taking the stuff from the playbook of the of the Catholic Church or not to say Catholics, whoever other religious faction is smuggling people in because they figured, well, you're going to pay me back become by being a member of my church and contributing to it because like you've said before or other people have said before, you know, the number of people over the years have been dropping going down the church. Nobody wants to lose money whether you're the church or the government. So they're looking for whatever way to strengthen their position and and that's why I feel they've been doing that. It it's always been follow the money as the old saying goes. >> See I and the other point is I don't know whether Jesus to get back to the Jesus point here and you know I don't know whether Jesus would have advocated for the violation of our sovereignty and and the laws um of the nation. I'm not I'm not sure Jesus would have been uh would would have been down with that. and and to try for the church to try to say, "Well, yeah, you know, Jesus uh would have been right out there uh you know, throwing bricks at at ice." I'm I'm not quite sure that's true. >> No, I don't believe that either because you know what? It's still a mystery about the man. You know what I'm saying? How he lived. I mean, all you get as far as my years are going, he gets born and then you get into the crucifixion. What happened to everything in the middle? He didn't do anything. he didn't have a job or he didn't you know what I'm saying that sort of deal little is spoken about that but you know what I'm working on my faith and getting back to your point the reason why I go to church I need to get recharged because all this other baloney that's floating around out there it's enough already I want to go someplace where I'm not hearing it it's like going shall we say like I'm I'm really sending this low like going to the library it's quiet it's peaceful no one's yelling at you. No one's shoving whatever you know you we all believe you know what it is whether it's the Bible or whatever religious you know um entity you believe in but you're getting recharged from the everyday >> life issues. Yeah. >> You know you've got to slow down you know and and to me that that guy just took that that piece away. It's like, why am I gonna go here? Because, you know, you're just gonna be on the pulpit. God knows what you're gonna be a good part of that pun. [laughter] Yeah. Hey, listen. Good calling. I appreciate it, my friend. Thank you so much. 5089960500 is our number. And let me grab the next one. Thanks for hanging on. You're next on WBSM. >> Hey, good afternoon, Barry. >> Hi. >> This is a good conversation. Um, I actually had to go back and look for Bible verses um on it about obeying the law of the land uh in which he resides. Now, it's kind of conflicted back and forth and again, the Bible was written over the period of 2,000 years. Um, you know, so there there's a lot in there. Um, but it instructs us to obey the laws of the land. And the reasoning for it would be that the law of the land, the the structure that we have in place in our government, God blessed it. God allowed it. It's part of God's plan. And we should not be going against the wishes of God. um and the commands of God. So therefore, we should be obeying the laws of the land um as they came from God himself. So there there's caveats to that because obviously somebody down in Cuba or you know in a in a bad situation in a bad country this kind of doesn't apply. But in America here, our faith tells us that we should obey the laws of the land because they are ordained by God. It is part of God's plan for us. Um, now you mentioned St. James or uh I'm sorry. Yeah, St. James a while ago. >> Yeah. >> Right. As as Bianca was going and you've actually touched on this, you forgot about it uh in previous conversations. You touched on it on uh St. James. It was called St. James down at the bottom of County Street kind of. >> Yep. >> And that is where they they admittedly housed illegal immigrants following the Bianca raid. >> That's correct. >> And as as a result of that, they changed the name. They scrubbed St. James and turned it into St. uh Our Lady of Guadaloop. >> Well, and and you know, somebody else mentioned the a mix between um you know, between church and state. Now I remember uh because I was there. I was literally physically there. I remember when the uh the church hierarchy I don't know who made the local decisions. It was a lot of years ago now. But uh when they um provided sanctuary to these folks, um I remember Ted Kennedy going into the building and I remember um Liveshot John Kerry going into the building and I remember uh Barney Frank going into the building to meet with these folks in a church and um you know they all pulled up. This was a Sunday morning. I was there. There was a massive crowd of support outside in support of the um uh the immigrants that were inside. So there was a little bit too of government getting involved in crossing that line into church business and I found that to be a little bit strange too when it happened. >> Yeah, it was photo ops. I'll I'll say that about the politicians. It was photo ops. >> Yeah, >> that's all it was. It's feel good and they're they're hoping hoping for they're fishing for votes when they do that kind of stuff. Um, >> but getting back to it, the the Lord, if for those of us that have faith, we obey the laws of the land because they are ordained, they were blessed by our creator. They are only there because our creator planned that way. >> So your your your belief is that Christ would have followed the laws of the land if he were here today. >> Yes. >> All right. Thank you, my friend. I'm going to hold you right there. 5089960500 is the number. I got to get a real quick break and stay on the line. Talking about this story out of Denim that's now made world news. And this is about a Catholic church, St. Susanna Parish, uh where the priest who's been described as a dissident uh over like the last 20 years uh removed the baby Jesus and Joseph and and Mary from the from the crash and replaced it with a sign that said ice was here. And that drew a sharp response from uh Catholic groups. And the archbishop has told uh the pastor to remove the sign and put the baby Jesus back where he belongs. What do you think about all of this? Quick break. We'll come right back. >> AI agents are everywhere automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. >> [music] >> Rubric Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guard rails, and rewind mistakes, [music] so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation at rubric.com. That's rubric i k.com. This portion of programming on WBSM [music] is brought to you by De's Hot Dogs in New Bedford, where you can get two hot dogs, soda, and a bag of chips for only $5. Back [music] to Barry Richard on WBSM. Call 508996500. [music] >> First of December and here come the songs. I look at you and [music] think, what could go wrong? Cuz it's Christmas. Why can't we all [music] just get along? >> All right. 12:47. Why can't we all just get along? Well, how can we get along when Trump's in the White House, right? We can't do that. My goodness. All right. 5089960500 is our phone number. Let's get back to your calls and you are next in WBSM. Appreciate you hanging on. >> Hey Barry, how are you? >> Good. How you doing Paul? >> Good, good, thanks Barry. You know I am very disappointed in a way. I I think this priest's passion I he put politics in into a time where there should be no politics and and it's unfortunate because um the priest takes a a an oath of obedience. He had no right to do that. He knew very well that he was out of his realm because he's supposed to everything's supposed to go through the bishop. He he has that's that's the oath he takes as a priest. That's one of the oaths is obedience. So he broke that. So he's already kind of in trouble probably like for that part of it. But but what's disappointing is this. Instead of us talking about Advent, which we're in the second week, it's four weeks. Advent is a time of preparation of prayer. you're looking to yourself, arms given, do things without people knowing, do do acts of kindness. >> Instead of talking about that, we're talking about this. >> And this is why this is why this priest did a disservice. And and it's funny because at home, my major scene, I don't have the baby Jesus either in it. >> But the reason why I don't have it, it's an anticipation. >> Yeah. >> Come Christmas Eve, we put the b we put the baby Jesus in the crash. We sing religious songs as as like a family and light the final candle. >> Oh wow. Great. That sounds like an awesome family tradition. Yeah. >> Yeah. Every week. So this week's this week the second week of the Advent we get the second candle lit around the manger and it's in preparation and we and we do prayer and you know and everybody likes to look at at the Catholic church you know they do I like every other church every other people who worship God. We're not perfect people, but at least I know I'm It's like I can tell like my son Barry, dad's stupid enough to sin, but smart enough to ask for forgiveness, >> and that's what we have to keep on doing as people. So, I think this priest had a good intention. He's passionate. He He don't want to see people get hurt. He He has a different view of it. I I have a different view of it, but I I wish he was separated. It's It's funny because even when we're in church, I have this policy. Even in the church hall, we're having a donuts, coffee, whatever it is. And somebody brings up politics. I refuse to talk politics. We're in church. The the the tabernacle is behind us. We're in a presence of God. I'm not going to talk politics here. >> There's nothing worse to me than going to church or going to a concert or going to any kind of performance or any and people start hitting you with politics. It's like, look, I'm here to get rid of politics and to escape from it and to find something else. do, Barry. It It's It's We do it on talk shows and and and I get it and like we talk politics, but people have to look at people that people are more than their political views. That's maybe 10% of who that person is. We have to get through that. Got to get by that and get to know the person. This is bold because we're hurting ourselves as as like the people. We're losing out. There's so many good people who you you may not have the same political view but they're great people who know things and you may learn things from these people from different people all walks of life. So I what this priest did he separated people and this is the time to bring people together and the crush is about love the crash is about hope that >> and he's using his faith to separate people and to divide people >> and yeah you know he's a man he's a priest he made a mistake he's probably a good man I don't know him anybody who who decides to become a priest there's good in that person of course there's bad I know all the I know I know there's bad people there's bad people everywhere. But a lot of priests in the toughest time in my life, priests have been there for me. They they they've been my shepherds. So I cannot >> Well, I'm not I'm not suggesting this guy's a bad dude and and I'm not suggesting that he doesn't have a right to do what he what he does. You know what? Again, I'm not a I'm not a Catholic. So >> he doesn't have the right. He doesn't have the right. He doesn't because he takes an oath of obedience. He cannot do he can't be doing political statements. Everything goes through the bishop. Once you become a priest, you take that oath of obedience. It's not about you anymore. You give yourself to the church. >> Well, there's a hierarchy there. and and you know for for years as as the Catholic the the head of the Catholic league mentioned in Tim Dunn's story um or actually it was in the Boston broadside reaction to Tim's story uh said that you know this guy has been a dissident for for 20 years and he's been able to get away with it under Sean Ali but now there's a new sheriff in town and he's uh you know putting his foot down in in in terms of this type of behavior Paul thank you my friend I got to hold you right there 5089960500 I mentioned Tim because Tim Dunn wrote the story uh that first appeared in the Boston Herald last Friday. He was on the program with us and we talked about this and he's got a follow-up piece in the Boston Herald today. A national Catholic adviser to Trump campaign chimes in on Denim Church ICE sign and it's a good read and um you know once again uh um the guy's name is Patrick Walsh. He's from Quinsey. is one of 34 people selected by Trump to join the group uh which provided him with advisory support related to issues and policies affecting Catholics and people of other religions. And um Walsh told Tim um it should be removed immediately. They're trying to politicize something when it's Christmas season and Christ is supposed to be our savior. This church shouldn't be playing politics with Advent. uh stories in the Boston Herald on boston herald.com, too. So, you can go take a look at that. All right, I've got to get the break and we're going to come right back after this. Stay tuned. You're listening to WBSA. >> This is the story of the one. 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See capital 1.com for details. >> Broadcasting live from the Carefree Home Studios. This is WBSM. Carefree Homes, your home improvement experts. roofing, [music] siding, windows, and more. Get a free quote at carefreehomes company.com. Carefree Homes, trusted, [music] local, family. Chestnuts roasting on an open file. [music] Jack Frost nipping at your >> All right. 12575089960500 is our number. Let's grab one more before we hit the news. And you're next in WBSM. Thanks for waiting. >> Hi, Barry. >> Hi. Right. Um, regarding that that church, a lot of people call in saying like leaving politics out of it. >> Yeah. >> And um, I'd have to disagree with that part of it because they intertwine like uh, a lot of times like abortion, you know, that's kind of considered politics, but the the church shouldn't be silent on that. So, what what this guy did was wrong because it's not scriptural. Like, if he had something anti-abortion or something like that outside, that's scriptural and could be backed by scripture. But what he's what he's done is it's a political not scripturebacked. So he basically using his church as a political stunt. Um so like I don't think Christians should be like just say hey don't keep politics keep politics out of it. If you're talking about certain things >> all right let me let me ask you let me let me ask you this. In the interest of time let me cut in and ask you this. Um was it handled improperly? Should he maybe have given a part of his sermon uh from the altar about the issue as opposed to uh doing something as radical as replacing the baby Jesus and the crush at Christmas? Do you think that took it too far? >> Well, I I think it it took it too far and also it's it's unscriptural. So if you if you say something at the pulpit that's unscriptural, I mean, we're supposed to, you know, take care of, you know, you know, others and all that, but but the obeying the laws of the land is is is scriptural. And and when somebody's coming in illegally, you know, what Jesus would say would would be like, well, you know, they have to follow the laws of the land, and if the laws of the land cause them to be uh either arrested or uh deported, that's the laws of the land. Now, there's one exception like if if the laws of the land contradict the Bible, then you're not asked to obey the laws of the land because we know the disciples um Paul went into prison because they were asked not to preach and not to speak about Jesus. You they were warned they were brought up and says, you know, don't do that. They basically said, you know, we can't follow, you know, we can't follow that. And they didn't. So, we know through that that not everything falls under that. But if it's if it doesn't go against the Bible, then you're supposed to obey the laws of the land. So what what Trump is doing, what ISIS is doing is is they're enforcing the laws of the land. So that's more scriptural. So if he said it at the pulpit or whether he said it with a display, the display makes it worse, but it's he can't be back. >> All right, let me I've got to hit the news here, but let me just quickly in summation. Do you believe that the priest is within his rights to address political issues from the altar >> if if it's biblically based? >> I mean, you can't leave it out there like you can't just avoid abortion because now you're avoiding scripture. Thank you my friend.